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About 14mm long taken today South coast UK . Any ideas on ID?
Thanks
Brian V.

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Hello!

Size, please?

Ichneumoninae (?)Coelichneumon sp?

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Size??????...............Pristiceros infractorius

Valemberg Jo?L d?t;

Ichneumoninae Platylabini!

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Thanks for the ID cthirion
Brian V.

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I'd just like to add that I have always held that identifying ANY ichneumonoid from a photo is *very* speculative unless there is absolutely no doubt. I just looked at the photo here and thought there are too many species that look similar and without a clear view of the wing venation, face, gaster and propodeum it isn't worth offering a name.

Can the people who responded with names say exactly why they think it is that species?

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From Valemberg , french ichneumonologist (Lille)!

Non, je ne le pense pas.
Tout d'abord aucun ?l?ment structural sp?cifiquement indispensable ne peut ?tre appr?ci? sur cette vue; nous n'avons d'ailleurs aucune id?e de la taille ( probablement autour de 10-12 mm, pas plus) . Malgr? le p?tiole invisible je pense ? un platylabien car on peut distinguer :
1) habitus tr?s d?li? du Platylabini : pattes gr?les et allong?es, flagellum gr?le avec macule blanche r?duite et situ?e dans la moiti? post?rieure
2) les segments ant?rieurs de l'abdomen sont margin?s apicalement
3) dessous des coxae macul? de blanc (voir notamment les procoxae)
4) orbites externes enti?rement blanches (pratiquement tous les platylabiens ont les temps ainsi macul?es ext?rieurement)
5) alitronc tr?s macul? de blanc (lignes hum?rales enti?rement notamment)
et surtout la t?te tr?s ?troite antero-post?rieurement avec les tempes particuli?rement fuyantes; scapes tr?s courts). Tout ceci nous ?loigne des coelichneumon et nous rapproche des platylabiens.
Pour moi cette vue peu appr?ciable nous rapproche du Pristiceros infractorius m?le mais dont les segments ant?rieurs un peu rufescents de l'abdomen sont un peu g?nants; par contre chez cette derni?re esp?ce les segments m?diaires de l'abdomen ont bien la marge post?rieure margin?e de clair comme sur la vue. Les pattes sont celles des platylabiens. Scutellum trop plat pour Hybophorellus; t?te trop ?troite pour Acolobus sp.

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Er..., what does this all amount to? At least MY knowledge of French does help me out here.

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Chris's comment is generally true but this excellent photo depicts an insect identical in all visible respects to our museum specimen determined by both Brock and Aubert. Chthirion is correct unless we have both been misled by a truly (ad I think impossibly)remarkable mimetic. We (RN JP O'Connor, Dublin) work on Ichneumonidae using a combination of expertly identified specimens and keys, descriptions and monographs (Ulster Museum National Museum of Ireland). Incidentally we only have three specimens all from Scotland. Summary Pristiceros infractorius surely.

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Info: Gavin Broad's excellent Checklist of British and Irish Ichneumonidae (155 pp.) is on

http://www.brc.ac.uk/downloads/Ichneumonidae_checklist.pdf

in this list Pristiceros infractorius is annotated England (not Scotland, Wales Ireland). We are currently working through the taxonomically clean (well identified) material in Ireland to improve the geographic data in Gavin's list.

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Translation (draft) First of all no specifically essential structural element can be appreciated in this photo: we do not have any idea of the size besides (probably around 10-12 mm, not more).
In spite of the invisible petiole I think of a platylabine because one can distinguish:
1) jizz ? typical of Platylabini: legs thin and lengthened, flagellum with reduced white macula (spots) and located in the posterior half .
2) the anterior segments of the abdomen with apical ?margin?s?

3) lower part of the coxae maculated (spotted) white (see in particular the procoxae)
4) entirely white external orbits (practically all the platylabines have times thus maculated outside)
5)
alitronc (mesothorax) very maculated with white (humeral lines entirely and in particular)

Especially the very narrow (antero-posteriorly) head with the particularly reduced temples (area between ocelli and eye; scapes very short) suggests not Coelichneumon and brings closer us the platylabines
For me this not very appreciable sight brings us closer to male Pristiceros infractorius but the anterior segments of the abdomen being a little rufescents is little awkward; on the other hand at this species has the medial segments of the abdomen have well the posterior margin light as seen. The legs are those of the platylabines. The scutellum is too flat for Hybophorellus; the head too narrow for Acolobus sp.

Note the reliance on shape and proportion and less defined thoracic and head "areas" than in Diptera and no chaetotaxy to help. Fortunately Townes Genera of the Ichneumonidae benefited from Japanese illustration. Note also Chthirion's mix of diagnostic and diiferential characters. Very well argued case and a tough call. Impressive.

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Thanks Robert - very interesting I am probably over pesimistic with ichneumons but I like to try and encourage people to key specimens rather than think they will get good identifications from photos, as this isn't possible in most cases (this being one exception)

I have downloaded Gavin's checklist and will keep it handy - there must have been plenty of name changes since the old keys were written.

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Too right on all (keys pessimism and name changes). Interestingly I saw Jacques Aubert and his collection in Lausanne museum last year. His specimens are on huge pins which have removed most of the thorax.(Everyone be warned. Pins can be too big or too small). Even so Jacques ichs are immensely useful sinc so many characters are impossible to describe.Great list from Gavin. Brave soul.

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Thank you very much,Robert!

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Robert!

4O years in Ichneumonidae Ichneumoninae, Diplazontinae.....!

with Fitton, Gauld, Brock, Wahl, Diller, Aubert, Heinrich, Townes, Horstmann, Zwakhals

Really Chris!

Check-list world with Yu,

Belgium 1500 sp, in Notes fauniques de Gembloux-2005,N? 55:11? 42!

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Just received " Matt Riedel confirmed that the ichneumonid in the photo is not a platylabine (Matt has almost completed his revision of Platylabus and knows the tribe better than anybody) and agrees with me that it is probably a male of some species of Cryptini. As to what species, no idea I'm afraid.All the best,Gavin

Dr Gavin Broad
Coordinator of Zoological Data & Research, Biological Records Centre, Centre for Ecology & Hydrology, Monks Wood, Abbots Ripton, Huntingdon PE28 2LS
ENGLAND

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I doubt Cryptini............abdominal segment of the Ichneumoninae!

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Camille I agree.Not Cryptini. I posted what I received but perhaps Matt could qualify "probably" and "some".I repeat "excellent photo depicts an insect identical in all visible respects to our museum specimen of P. infractorius determined by both Brock and Aubert". Robert. I'll contact Matt for more argument.

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I see those who call Hymenoptera Parasitica the most difficult group of insects aren't joking It is good to know that from at least one point of view all flies are almost trivial to identify

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I transfer to Zwakhals!

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Just received this from Gavin Broad. "Just in case you are still interested, Matt Riedel confirmed that the ichneumonid in the photo is not a platylabine (Matt has almost completed his revision of Platylabus and knows the tribe better than anybody) and agrees with me that it is probably a male of some species of Cryptini. As to what species, no idea I'm afraid."
More discussion?
Brian V.